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November 28, 2006 8:51 AM
EN GARDE! Belien vs. Peters
* * * Ralph Peters’ latest book “Never Quit the Fight” proposes a map of how America should redraw the borders in the Middle East. This enraged many Muslims. Perhaps, having enraged Middle East Muslims, Peters, a retired US Army intelligence officer, thought it was about time to restore the balance and enrage non-Muslim Europeans. Last Sunday he published an op-ed piece in the New York Post, entitled The ‘Eurabia’ Myth: Muslims Take Over Europe? Sorry, There’s No Chance. Peters’ argument is that Muslim immigrants will never be able to conquer Europe because the Europeans are “world-champion haters” who will never let “impoverished Muslim immigrants” take over their societies. On the contrary, Peters asserts, the “continent that perfected genocide and ethnic cleansing” will “over-react with stunning ferocity.” Europeans, Peters reminds us, “are just better [than Muslims] at the extermination process. […] It’s the difference between the messy Turkish execution of the Armenian genocide and the industrial efficiency of the Holocaust. Hey, when you love your work, you get good at it.” Hence, “Europe’s Muslims will be lucky just to be deported,” Peters says. Fortunately for these Muslims, however, Peters is more than willing to deploy the U.S. Army in Europe “to guarantee the safe evacuation of Europe’s Muslims.” He even invites a good number of them to settle in America since the United States has such a good track record with Muslim immigrants, who “have a higher income level than our national average.” Ralph Peters’ diatribe against the Europeans reminds me of those anti-American Europeans who accuse Americans of being the “world-champions of genocide.” To prove their point they invariably refer to the plight of the American Indians, once the rulers from the Redwood Forest to the New York Island, now exterminated and confined to reservations. Though the number of people voicing such opinions is growing in Europe I do not take their vicious arguments seriously. I do not take Peters’ vicious anti-Europeanism seriously either, though I have noticed that this type of American anti-Europeanism is growing as well. While visiting the US recently I met a conservative professor who told me almost literally the same thing as Peters. He, too, said that Europeans were ineradicably vicious, that hating others is in their blood and that they can never be cured of their mass-murdering impulse. He, too, said that, rather than taking native European immigrants in, America should open its doors to Muslims, because those people “can at least be respected while Europeans can only be despised.” He even added that the biggest mistake the U.S. made during WWII was to nuke Japan instead of Europe. Their contempt has turned to hatred, which is understandable because it is all too human, but it is nevertheless utterly wrong. Those who despise Europeans for having lost their willingness to fight back against Muslim arrogance are now accusing them of wanting to exterminate the Muslims. Those who have come to hate the Europeans are now saying that Europeans are “exacerbating fear and hatred.” They claim that Europeans are contemplating a second holocaust – this time with the Muslims as their victims. In their hatred for Europe some conservatives even seem to have begun to embrace the Muslims. Peters is prepared to invite the latter to come to America, thus welcoming to the U.S. the cause of Europe’s disease today. It is said that hatred makes people blind, and Peters’ article in America’s most conservative newspaper is the best example of this. As a European who loves America I belong to a minority. I edit an online magazine The Brussels Journal which tries to rally the small band of pro-American Europeans and warn America not to make the fatal mistakes we have made in Europe. I can assure you that “Eurabia” is real enough. We have received threats from extremist muslims, we have been harassed by the authorities. I was present when earlier this year a group of scholars met in The Hague to discuss Eurabia. I saw how they had to do so anonymously, under assumed names and under police protection. Eurabia is not a myth. Eurabia is all too real. We see how the inner cities and suburbs in various European countries are degenerating into “no go” areas, where people get killed, where the police no longer venture and where radical Muslims hold sway. The French authorities have published a list of 751 “sensitive urban areas,” which are no longer under the control of the authorities and which have become, as Daniel Pipes remarked, the “Dar al-Islam, the place where Muslims rule.” Almost 5 million people, or 8% of the French population, live in these “sensitive urban areas.” But, apparently, there is hope, because here is Ralph Peters in The New York Post, offering to have the U.S. intervene and evacuate the inhabitants to America! Americans do not realize how dramatic the situation is in Europe today. The Europeans are running. Instead of fighting they are leaving. They are leaving the cities for the countryside. In my home town of Antwerp 5,000 immigrants move in every year while 4,000 Antwerpians move out. Many Dutch are leaving their highly urbanized country for places such as rural Norway. Some are leaving Europe altogether. The Netherlands and Germany have more emigrants than immigrants today, and in other countries, such as Belgium, Britain and Sweden the number of emigrants is rising. These people are not driven by hatred, they are driven by despair and the hope for a better future which they realize their Eurabian home countries are no longer able to provide. Paul Belien is editor of The Brussels Journal and an adjunct fellow of the Hudson Institute.
——— Comments (63)AskMom :David Thomson :Ralph Peters is talking like a fool. I see little evidence that the wimpy Europeans will do anything effective against the Islamic extremists. No, It best to just leave the continent. This is especially true if one is Jewish. If there will be widespread slaughter of any particular group---it will be the Jews. Laocoon :This is also known as the "Clash of Fascisms" thesis. Google it. Oxbay :Peters, and anyone else who agrees with him, is wrong to advocate for an influx of Muslims to the U.S. Islam is not the answer to America's problems. Jean :I've generally noticed that Peters is all over the place - once in the blue moon, he'll have a great piece, but most of the time he just sounds like he needs to ease up on the coffee. Tom Holsinger :Mr. Belien has a very optimistic opinion of Germans. Mike_K :Many of the objectionable opinions you hear may come from Americans who travel little and have not been in Europe recently. I do travel to Europe frequently and spent three weeks in France last summer. I took my 16-year-old daughter because I am worried about what Europe will be like in 5 years. I had several observations. The French were the friendliest I have seen them in 30 years. I was astonished at how much English is now spoken, even in Paris which has been the least friendly part of France until now. I think the French recognize the problem in their midst and have enough cultural pride to resist the trend toward Islamic domination. We saw a young Muslim woman begging in a cafe and the owner quite forcefully ejected her. I also suspect they may be realizing who their friends are. I was told by our hostess in a Nomandy B&B that tourism is way down. I am more worried about England. They seem to have lost the will and I have many friends there who suffer from Bush Derangement Syndrome like their American soulmates. The Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, of which I have been a Fellow for many years, has a lead article on Bush and Blair and their "hubris." I saw no mention of the hubris of psychiatrists who try to do remote analysis of political figures they disagree with. Germany and the smaller countries I have no recent experience with although I was in Turkey not long ago and found them very friendly. I think France will find the will although it may not be pretty. Mikey NTH :No, I think this is a mistatement of Peters' position. Because many Europeans have lost the will to fight and will not when the problem is smaller and easier to deal with, they will in the end be forced to fight when the problem is harder to deal with, when the hatred and fear is more than it is today. Because the hatred and fear will be deeper, and because the problem will be more intractable the temptation will be there to use every tool available, including extermination, and it will be easier to give into that temptation and rationalize it away. And if that temptation is given into, Europeans will once again show a mastery at organizing a large scale blood-bath. That's how I understood Peters' views. YMMV. Peg C. :At some point in the past few years, Ralph Peters has lost his sense. However, I see absolutely no widespread belief on the conservative side that Europe will rise up and commit genocide against their Muslim immigrants, so I part ways with Belien there. Most conservatives believe, as Steyn does, that Europe has grown fatally weak in the face of Islamic extremism, unassimilation and unrest. These are people who increasingly pass laws preventing homeowners from protecting themselves on their own property. They are going to rise up and attack Muslims? My guess is the average native European is twice or 3 times as old as the average Muslim living there (native or not). As for us bringing European Muslims here, it ain't ever gonna happen! This country would rise up in revolt first. Personally I'd vote for anyone who ran on an anti-Muslim platform, simply because they have come to embody Evil to me and many people I know, and they pose by far the most serious threat to this country. And we have far from seen the last of their tactics on our soil. Just wait 'til the next one. I still can't find much sympathy in me for Europe. I've been there, but the Europe I love no longer exists. Tom Holsinger :Peg C., Consider changing: "At some point in the past few years, Ralph Peters has lost his sense." to: "At some point in the past few years, Ralph Peters had issues with his meds." But he is still sometimes insightful, and this is one of those times. Straight-line analysis of social trends is generally facile. Mark R. :I think the implication Peters is trying to make (but perhaps not very successfully) is that the current weakness in Europe will deepen the problem, encourage the growth of Islamists, and ultimately lead to a reaction from European ultra-right forces. The ultra-right and anti-immigrant parties are becoming increasingly popular in France and some other countries, and given enough provocation from the Islamists will grow to include the more moderate parts of the population. Periodic German neo-Nazi attacks on Turkish immigrants or others is a prelude to what Peters postulates as the ultimate result. Whether it gets there or not depends to a large extent on what the responsible people and governments in France, Netherlands, and elsewhere do to address the growing Islamist threat and its increasing tendency towards violence. Ignoring or appeasing it is more likely to lead to the kind of cataclysm that Peters envisions. James G :Peters fails consider the demographics. Wars -- and holocausts -- require lots of young males, enough to overpower the enemies/victims. Euro-muslims are outbreeding non-Muslim Europeans and the pool of young male non-Muslim Europeans, the would-be mass murderers in Peters fantasy, do not exist in sufficient numbers. Whatever numerical edge they may have over hyper-breeding Muslims is shrinking daily. F Fields :Peg C., you are correct on the age issue. I was reading an article which I cannot cite that stated that there are now an equal number of native French and muslim young people in France. I'm American and live near France and the press does not report the extent of the burnings and assaults. It is quick to report anything anti-USA. The most virulent anti-USA messages seem to come from CNN. They are not trying to outdo the European stations, but my opinion is that they are operating from core beliefs, as their passion seems sometimes unbridled. They carry little information for their European audience on the extent of the terror activity and all the media refers to it as gangs of youth violence. They generally refer to north African youths. Some in Europe have no indication of the seriousness of the situation. Matt_B :Well I hope those European emigrants are not coming to the US! The last thing we need is to become infected with their spineless demeanors and loss of cultural confidence -we have enough of those people already. If the Europeans, with their insane social policies and pc/statist convictions, have created this mess they should stay there and fix it. We don't need to import their nihilism even if some of our intellectuals find it chic. I agree with Mikey_NTH that Peter's position is slightly misrepresented. The West does not have the fortitude and courage to handle a manageable problem, so at some point it will have to summon the ferocity to handle a disaster. At that point the West will lose its soul- whatever is presently left of it. Pamella aka Atlas :Peters has become the quintessential dhimmi tool. He pulled the same shit on Robert Spencer, Bat Yeor, Andrew Bostom a few weeks back --- attempting to marginalize and discredit the few extraordinary truth tellers/scholars, to what end? At least this time Taranto sat thids one out. There is more to Peters' propaganda than meets the eye. Pastorius :I love the Brussels Journal, and I think Paul Belien would be aware that I have stuck up for him on many occasions. But, I think he is being a bit disingenuous here. Fjordman, who writes for the Brussels Journal, predicts that fascsism is actually a very likely outcome if the governments of Europe do not radically alter their policies in the near future. I would swear I have also heard Paul Belien (was it in a video at Pamela's site) talk about the possibility of Europe turning to "strong man" type leaders in response to the chaos and violence of the "no-go zones". So which is it, Mr. Belien? Will Europe go as Fjordman and Ralph Peters say is likely, or do Fjordman and Ralph Peters deserve to be condemned? Ralph Peters :This is the first time I have ever responded to a blog--I prefer to let others enjoy themselves in the arena, since I'm fortunate to publish elsewhere--but I'm annoyed by Monsieur Belien's silly misrepresentation of my views. I have never suggested bringing Europe's Muslims to the United States--Belien is, as the Bowery Boys used to put it, jumping to contusions. Read the piece itself. Further, Belien, who clearly never has opened my last book, relies on the internet myth that it contains the article I wrote on how the Middle East's borders would look if the local populations, rather than dead Europeans, drew them. In fact, the article was published in Armed Forces Journal and only there for now (although I shall include it in a future collection, just to further annoy the fanatics on both sides of the political spectrum, foreign and domestic). Personally, I take the old-fashioned position that, if one feels compelled to attack a writer's work, one should read it first. Silly me. Finally, I am always delighted when I anger flagrant bigots (who I imagine as dreary, dumpy and dateless), be they on the right or left. (John Lennon was right: If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao--or Anne Coulter--you aren't going to make it with anyone, anyhow...) For myself, I would only be disappointed if I couldn't routinely infuriate our own domestic Taliban (which comes in both donkey and elephant flavors). As for how Europe will handle its Muslims, I suppose we shall just wait and see. Bon chance, mes amis! becky :Peters is not a "conservative". Only a European could think so. I didn't read the piece all the way through, although he made a good point in the opening. I know it is fun for Europeans to hate those damn American conservatives(TM) - as much as we Americans love to hate the French and well, these days, all Europeans. But if he mistakes Peters as a "conservative", then he has a misunderstanding of America that is so fundamental then that what's the point of reading him further? Lehuster :While visiting the US recently I met a conservative professor... Yeah, right. That must have been the only one in the whole country! becky :Mike_K, Mike_K. They were the friendliest you've seen them for 30 years BECAUSE you were with your 16 year old daughter! helllloooo! profligatewaste :I just hope that when the Europeans all leave, they take their nuclear fuel and weapons with them; don't want to leave that stuff lying around the for the children to get into to. Equus :The arguments encountered by Mr. Belien are not representative of conservative thinking in America. The New York Post is also NOT "America's most conservative newspaper." In fact, it's almost the complete opposite. I'm a bit stumped how Mr. Belien could have made that error. It certainly does appear that he has lumped the American conservative ("Europe is weak.") and American liberal ("People who oppose radical islam are racist and islamophobic.") viewpoints together. It should be recognised that these are two separate and strongly opposing viewpoints here in the States. Mike Perry :Peters' reasoning is seriously flawed. Germany killed Jews when they were a small, well-educated, and aging population, roughly one percent of the German population. Jews had no tradition of violence and most were so eager to be regarded as German, they were paralyzed by Nazi propaganda It's easy to get nasty in situations where the victims are few and don't resist. And never forget how poorly the world's press reported on the plight of the Jews. In the NY Times reports of the Holocaust typically ran in small type somewhere past page 20. It's not so easy to get nasty when the target population is ten percent or more, when it is rootless, young and male, when it has a long tradition of violence, when it has no desire to be accepted by the nation as a whole, and when the world press toadies to its every demand. If the France of today can't control small Muslim enclaves, how will it be able to evict millions of them from their shores? Most important of all, Europe's Jews had no nation that regarded their welfare as its special concern. The nations that regard Muslims as their special concern not only control the bulk of the world's oil reserves, by the time this eviction begins to be debated in earnest, several of them are likely to have nuclear weapons. Is France willing to see Paris reduced to a radioactive rubble to free itself of Islamic radicalism? Is Europe willing to see its economies destroyed when its oil supplies are cut off. I think not. The gentleman who took his daughter to see France while there is still a France to be seen is wise. This time there will be no heroic battle at the Gates of Vienna. Europe will go "gently into the dark night," having conspired for decades in its own suicide. --Michael W. Perry, Seattle JKRibera :"This is the first time I have ever responded to a blog--I prefer to let others enjoy themselves in the arena, since I'm fortunate to publish elsewhere--" Wow, is Ralph Peters a Luddite or simply someone with a tin ear? Or maybe he's blind, because he doesn't see top flight professional writers like Victor Davis Hanson, Ron Rosenbaum and Claudia Rosett blogging here on Pajamas Media. He should be so lucky. Lexington Green :Peters is often so vehement that the merit of his position is lost. His basic point is that the Europeans are not going to mutely accept subjugation and the destruction of their civilization. They have shown no historical aptitude for that sort of thing. Even the French, whom Americans too easily despise, submitted to the Germans because they thought they could preserve their country by doing so. For the moment the problem is being contained in ghettoes. If it gets to the point of "us or them" and "nowhere to run" except abroad, there will be a counter-reaction that will make Le Pen look like the Christmas elf. The Europeans who are too poor to run away will fight back and there will be civil war, and that is more likely than a slow, bloodless decline into dhimmitude in Europe. That is, I think, Peters' main point, and I think it is correct. Pastorius :Mike Perry, The Greeks rounded up 1 million Muslims and deported them in 1918. It wasn't just Germany who rounded up Jews. It was also Poland, France, Italy, etc. Also Europe fought WWII between themselves, and they did so in an exceedingly vicious manner. Also, in 1492 the Spanish kicked the Muslims out of Europe. Then, there is also Charles Martel, Jean Sobieski, Vlad the Impaler, and the other countless pogroms, and minor genocides and ethnic cleansings that go to make up European history. dstevens :Peters simply can't be serious that the Europe of today is predictably as violent as it was pre WWII. Momentous changes have occurred socially, politically, and economically to allow one a hypothesis that easily crushes Peters', unlike most of his other commentary which is highly salient. But Belien failed - he danced around Peters' point and did nothing to contradict it. Why not address it directly and tell us why Peters' is wrong? Why can't or won't Europeans exterminate or evict the muslims? Just respond to the argument instead of giving us comparisons and antecdotes? As a conservative American, I love Europe and have always felt that the civilization I saw there in the 90's is what we all should be looking for eventually. People really enjoyed life and there was so much care for their society. Its a shame that European culture is threatened by with immigrants who have no interest in the culture. Dave :In fairness to Ralph Peters, he does not propose bringing Europe's Muslims to America, only that U.S. Marines might guarantee their safe evacuation, presumably to Muslim countries.
JamesH :Paul, I don't think the conservative American professor is very typical of Americans. Apart from conservatives being rare in the professoriate, I and all the conservatives I know incline more to the views of Mark Steyn. Europe seems enervated. I wish they would deal with their immigrant assimilation problem. I've never been to Europe but hope to go some day. In 25 years, when I retire, it may be much different;-) My gripes about Europe would be the fog of political correctnessand the extent to which the governments don't represent their people's views ( on things like the EU constitution, the death penalty,etc) Maybe Europe will wake up and try assimilating their immigrants. Maybe they'll reduce the sclerosis in their labor markets and reduce unemployment and dependency. Or maybe not. I'm not optimistic about Europe's future but I do wish it well. Armor :Many people here think that the Europeans should stand up to the muslims. In fact, I think we should stand up to the loony left. Islam is not a daunting enemy. If we decide to change our immigration policy, I think we can repatriate most muslims to their home countries without causing civil war. There is nothing horrible in sending muslim immigrants back home. But the left-wing media won't let us do it. Even though left-wing fanatics are only a small minority in Europe, they have control over the media and a few other institutions. They are bent on causing more damage. They want to bring in millions more immigrants. I don't think muslim immigrants had any intention to invade Europe in the first place. They only came at the invitation of the loony left. If it was not for the loony left, muslim immigration to Europe would not exist and we wouldn't have any problem with islam. So, if we are to repel islam, the first step is to repel the loony left. After we get rid of the far left media, repelling islam won't be a problem. Ralph Peters, NYP: "the impoverished Muslim immigrants they confine to ghettos" In fact, the housing estates now inhabited by immigrants were built for Europeans. We had to leave due to immigrant violence. Brett_McS :Although I hate analogies, it is hard not to think of much of (western) Europe as the typical passive-aggressive, whereas the U.S. (and Eastern Europe) is more solidly assertive. As we know, it is the PA who is more likely to explode in violence. Stosh2 :I read The Brussels Journal regularly and think Mr. Belien is doing a courageous and necessary job with his publication. However, I think Mr. Belien oversimplifies the surfacing anti-Europe feelings in the US. Those feelings arise not just from Europe's lack of support for (to obstruction of) US actions and initiatives in the Middle East, its financial support of Islamic terrorist groups and its domestic and international anti-Semitism. American wariness of, dismay and frustration with Europe have a long history and run deep - surfacing only now and again - mostly at Europe's provocation. When the Founding Fathers warned against foreign entanglements, they were speaking about Europe. They knew first hand what a bloody mess the place and its politics could be. And they were right. This fact has been driven home again and again over time. Think 20th Century European history, for a quick example. Here, Mr. Belien blithely dismisses the enormous impact 20th Century Europe has had on the US. The impact was traumatic to say the least. More currently, the EU has positioned itself as an admitedly anti-US organization. There is no particular reason for a united Europe to be anti-American. In fact, the US wants and supports a stong free united Europe. Whether the EU will be successful or not, Europe's true intentions are on display, plainly and publicly stated. On a daily basis, you can read and hear snide, blatant, willful distortion and misrepresentation of US culture, politics and policy broadcast worldwide from Europe. Check out the BBC, Reuters, Le Figaro, Le Monde, Der Spiegel, and Stern for starters. Europe's scandalous performance in world trade negotiations speaks for itself. Now, Mr. Belien does not take this European viciousness seriously. Why not? It is the only voice we hear from Europe and we've heard it for a long time now. I'm not surprised many Americans have heard enough. I didn't interpret Mr. Peters' comments about US Muslims and potential evacuation of Muslims from Europe as an open invitation to the US. He simply doesn't say that. Eurabia may be real, but it seems to be the result of short sighted sclerotic European politics and policy. Europe is taking the same short sighted sclerotic approach with its US relations; another mistake. Rancorous US - EU relations can clearly be contrasted with the productive working relationship between the US and the APEC nations. At the recent APEC meeting, regional political, trade and security issues were openly and frankly discussed in an atmosphere of cooperation and recognized mutual self interest. There were certainly differences that still need to be worked out, but the overall tenor was substantive, respectful, even cordial. This could never happen in Europe today. The US and Asian economies are booming and trade is increasing. Cooperation on all levels of endeavor is becoming closer and more coordinated. America's future appears to lie more and more with our Asian partnerships. cavalry_scout :Peters would be a great candidate for a course in basic logic and reasoning. His recent column on counter-insurgency showed no serious scholarship or attention to history. This column just makes him appear even more vacuous. Clyde :The flaw in Peters' argument is in assuming that the Europeans are the same people that they were sixty years ago. Two world wars killed off most of the warlike men on the continent, and the survivors and their descendents have been ruthlessly indoctrinated with pacifism for six decades. You can selectively breed a guard dog into a poodle, but you can't breed the poodle back into a guard dog. The poodle may think he's a fierce Doberman, until he gets into a fight with a REAL Doberman. The Muslims are still real Dobermans. Bill Palmer :I know of NO ONE, especially conservatives, who express the ideas Paul is denouncing. A lot of us are disgusted with Europe's whimpiness and think the Euro elites are very wrong and very stupid but I don't know anyone who hates Europeans or thinks they are genocidal or, espeically, would prefer muslims to native Europeans. Somehow I think I would have see or heard some of this if it were more than a few people. al_miller :It seems that Mr. Belien only disagrees with Peters on whether America should take the Muslim scum in when Eurabia drives them out. Stephen :Peters is often eloquent, but in his latest he has casually slandered scholars like Bat Ye'or, Robert Spencer, Andrew Bostom, who have meticulously documented the devolution of Europe into Eurabia. He essentially dismisses such researchers as anti-Muslim bigots. Peters may scorn the blogosphere, but he represents some of the failings of the MSM, particularly in the way he personalizes his criticisms. I began to catch on to Peters when I noticed his vicious personal attacks on Rumsfeld. He didn't merely state his disagreements with Rumsfeld's policies, he sought to besmirch the man. Most of the time it's great to have Peters on our side but he's a loose cannon who occasionally misfires and strikes his own natural allies. Tennwriter :I'd say four words for those who doubt that the Europeans can deal with the Islamofascists due to disparities in numbers. Western Way of War. Or 'no organized force is outnumbered by a disorganized force'. This is not to say that the French and the Germans ARE going to flip a switch, and in oh, 2.5 years go from cringing before Islamofascists to exterminating the last enclaves with napalm bombs, artillery, and tank brigades in a finely coordinated assault guided by satellite observation and AWACS planes, and turning the whole of Europe "Islamfrei", but they could. Remember, it was the French who bombed Greenpeace, and were cruel to the Ivory Coast, and threatened nuclear retaliation. They have a greater capacity for ruthlessness than most people realize, and one should not confuse their public statements with reality, nor should one be unaware of how the pendulum can violently swing. Now the writer who points out the risk of Paris getting nuked by say Iran in this scenario does raise a very good point. However, I'm pretty sure the French counter to that would be along the lines of "If you do, Farsi will only be spoken in the afterlife." So it could go 'clash of fascisms', or it might not. My crystal ball is cloudy. Ziggy in JC :Peters is absolutely right,all minorities know that there is nothing crazier than an angry white guy. Tom Holsinger :Clyde, Peters' opinion only requires that the Germans have not changed. I agree they haven't. We will learn in our lifetimes whether this is true. The Germans are also not known for respecting national boundaries, the Rhine, etc. IMO Mr. Peters is entirely correct in stating that the lucky European Muslims will be those who are only deported. Manny C :I am a self-confessed agnostic which a strong conviction either way. I have read Oriana Fallaci, Robert Spencer and Mark Steyn all arguing for the Islamisisation of Europe. I have on the ground anecdotal evidence suggesting a growing resistance being put up by traditional Europe to Eurabia. I am not sure. This is definitely a wait-and-see situation. Jean :Col. Peters, RattlerGator :Stephen (7:36 p.m.), I think you nailed it, fella. Additionally, it remains my firm belief that the primary challenge facing our country is our necessary turn towards the Pacific. Mark Steyn has noted this but it really isn't getting much attention. This isn't really the forum but I think this dispute between Peters and Belien is part and parcel of the difficulties white people (in Europe and America, whether Jewish or not) will have with this shift. Europeans and Anglophiles alike will find it ever more unsettling to deal with a 21st century when America looks ever more to Australia and the Asian nations of the Pacific and they are increasingly on the sidelines. But that is our 21st century future. Yggdrasil :Ralph Peters gets it totally wrong when he says Europe do not want to integrate muslims. The muslims do not want to integrate. Muslim women are forbidden to marry infidels and young people are being sent back to the homeland to marry somebody waiting purely for their "visa" to Europe. This process does not lead to any increased integration. Scandinavian girls are being gangraped and called whores for wearing a skirt to school. I guess our friendly attitude has changed as it being increasingly abused. We are not hateful massmurderers though, but we want to slow down the numbers coming in while we are still able to. If America wants the muslims, please take them. We have had enough of this social experiement. And to the person who wrote that Fjordman agreed with Ralph Peters: You are utterly wrong and need to read more from Fjordman than the one article you have obviously read. Michael B :I doubt the situation will evolve in any type of simple, uniform "Eurabian" manner, though I do suspect the Eurabian motif will be much stronger than Col. Peters imagines. The multi-culti aspects of Europe are prevalent, even predominant, both de facto and de jure, and this represents a hollowing out of core or fundamental values more than it represents a more positive, assertive set of values. If that's an apt characterization, then that reflects a situation which is the exact opposite of the historical scenarios Peters analogizes. Couple that with the demographics and the core beliefs together with the counter-assertiveness, on various planes, of Muslim/Islamicist initiatives, and you have a real problem, an Archimedean leverage point at the very heart or center of Europe. Still, time will tell, it's also true that extreme situations can result in extreme reactions. But for such decisive reactions to gain and sustain impetus, doesn't there need to be a core set of values which have not been enervated by such as multi-culti pragmatics and legalisms? DVanstelt :I'm puzzled by Mr Belein's suggestion that asserting Europe's proclivity toward ethnic cleansing on the basis of past behavior means one is a europe-hater. I also have seen articles in the Brussels Journal which hinted at exactly the phenomenon Mr Peters asserts will occur. Relax Mr. Belein! We are all on the same side here, we don't hate Europeans (we mostly think they've lost their minds), and we will probably be here for you! It looks to me like maybe it is too late for ethnic cleansing in Europe. The demographic realities have already settled that issue, and eventually, civil war is possible. I have a brother-in-law in Holland and a close friend in Brussels, and I am often astounded at their hopefulness that eventually the muslims will find jobs, become seduced by materialism and the good life, and assimilate. All of which is impossible in economies that grow at 1 or 2 % per year when the muslim women produce 5 kids each. The under 30 bunch, which will produce the combatants, will be solidly muslim in not so many years in most of Europe. The Muslim way of war is self-destructive, suicidal, and never over, in these days of negotiated cease-fires. It is a horrible future, and the women seem to know.(they quit having babies) A more likely place for the ethnic cleansing scenario to take place is the US. Obviously a really awful event would be required to trigger such a response, but the crazy Muslims brought down the Twin Towers and would have been happier if they could have blown up Manhattan and taken millions with them. They have the will, and increasingly, the technology to pull the trigger. And I suspect, we will repond in a fairly draconian way. charlie :Hatred? Quite the contrary. To me, Europe is like a revered parent who is falling into helpless senilety. Hoping against hope, I want very much to believe Peters. Becky :ARMOR wrote: I think we can repatriate most muslims to their home countries without causing civil war. There is nothing horrible in sending muslim immigrants back home. But the left-wing media won't let us do it. Armor makes a very valid point, especially about the media. It would be easy and bloodless and sensible to openly get rid of those who wish to destroy our society. If we did so, in a reasoned manner, the others would be more inclined to assimilate - yet we do nothing - even to the most vocal and violent but say, "you poor thing, here is some money". The media does have a major role in making it difficult to take even the most basic and reasonable steps. They never, ever give the headlines to the soldiers coming home parades, but instead to the one and only looney anti-war mom they could find, Cindy Sheehan. Never once did they highlight any other mothers, soldiers or family members. I wish someone would look at the role of the mass media and its ownership and goals. It has become Hitleresque in it's propaganda powers. Propaganda is what allowed Hitler to rise to power so quickly. It is a very destructive force and not for our freedoms - but towards the forces that make totalitarianism possible. Imagine if the media had united behind the idea of a free and democratic Iraq, instead of working actively against us there. Not one channel ever talked about the good being done there, schools, water, government. I think it goes beyond a sixties mindset - as is is so cohesive. You can't pick up one major paper, turn on one newscast or listen to NPR without getting EXACTLY the same stories for the day/week/month. And now even the major internet outlets (yahoo, msm) carry the same wire headlines. There is no diversity of news in the major media. None And none of it is helpful to ideals that American people want, but rather contrary to them. Fox news did provide some differing opinion - but the focus was always on the same news d'jour that the other channels presented. Fox just phrased it as a question, "Should Donald Rumsfeld resign?" or "So and So said Bush is a monkey with big ears." "What do you think about that Sean?" The blogs have no such oneness of opinion. I wish someone with investigative powers would explain to the American people why that is so. And don't tell me it's that it's because of the wires - I want to know how it is the wires are that way! I can't speak for Europe - but I would suspect it is even worse there. I wonder if Hitler could have pulled it off without his propaganda? gringoman :Peters is an MSM gadfly. Belien is an unsually sober European. The debate reminds me of a gringo post, MAHOMET IN HELL (http://gringoman.typepad.com/usa/2006/09/mahomet_in_hell.html/) about Europe's historic view of Islam, as viewed by Dante. Salvador Dali etc. The current debate seems to revolve, by implication, on whether or not such legacies will have to be burned---or will finally attain an unprecedented mass popularity. The future could be hellishly interesting. MlR :A number of comments: First, the person who said Peters is not a "Conservative" is right. He'd probably best be described as a liberal-radical (a "radical" Army officer at that, amazing). Of course, owing to the misuse of the word liberal in the U.S., he gets lumped into the big lumpen-word 'Conservatives,' - which in the US just means, not socialist. A radical Army officer is Second, I've got to second the guy's disbelief at a conservative American professor. Please, let us know where we can take a picture of him for the American History Museum at the Smithsonian....I just, in part. Third, it is clear that the author here has attributed some things to Peters that he didn't say, notably that Muslims should be taken here if they get thrown out of the US. Although I am sure the Libera-intelligentsia will try to compare them to Holocaust Jewish refugees, I am pretty sure Peters does not believe that. Fourth, it is my opinion that Peters is right about the Europeans. Few realize how optimistic certain sections of Europe was at the supposed dawning of a new world through the League of Nations, particularly in London. Everything went downhill real fast. Europe is history's manic depressive. And when it comes down to it, even a minority of Europeans will be able to counter a largely disorganized rabble from a culture that fails nearly everywhere it goes (aside from the US). Fifth, I've been a fan of Peters since Red Army and War in 2020, but I have to admit that he does attack critics extremely harshly and sometimes unfairly. I agree with the poster who mentioned Rumsfield as a previous target. He's an iconoclastic and creative thinker (at a time when most of our pundits are too afraid to step on a limb), but also sometimes abrasive. Lexington Green made the argument less harsly. On the other hand, as someone who defended the Europeans (particularly Western) throughout the 1990s from third-worldists and Leftist, they deserve to be lambasted. I completely agree with Stosh...this is a long time coming. Time to turn to Asia and ignore a continent that's done nothing but give us problems since we stepped into it. Michael B :Mark Steyn responds, and rather effectively it seems, to Ralph Peters. First graph excerpted: "I don’t know whether Mr Peters is referring to my book, because, as usual when this particular columnist comes out swinging, he prefers to confront unnamed generalized opponents: thus, he refers to “a rash of pop pundits” predicting Europe will become Eurabia. Dismissing with airy condescension “a rash” of anonymities means you avoid having to deal with specific arguments." Excerpt of final graph: "Ralph Peters is late to this debate. If he’s going to join the discussion, he might do better to tackle the facts. But that would require him to acknowledge real specifics rather than “a rash of pop pundits”. You’ll notice that his column and mine differ not just in their approach to worldviews but in their approach to argument: mine cites four specific persons, their actions and assertions; his boldly batters anonymous generalizations. I know which I regard as more effective." Vanderleun :MIR says;"the author here has attributed some things to Peters that he didn't say, notably that Muslims should be taken here if they get thrown out of the US." (I assume that MIR mistyped and meant "Europe" not US. In the Peters essay in question, Peters does write: "I have no difficulty imagining a scenario in which U.S. Navy ships are at anchor and U.S. Marines have gone ashore at Brest, Bremerhaven or Bari to guarantee the safe evacuation of Europe's Muslims." He does omit in the article saying where these Muslims would be evacuated to, but I think it safe to say that Sadr City is not on Peters' short list. El Gordo, Germany :Both Peters and Belien exaggerate, but I think Mr. Belien is closer to the truth. The most salient fact about my German compatriots is the unwillingness to face reality: about demographics, security, the economy, anything that calls for argument and action. They prefer to worry about imagined problems – the US or climate change – because it is convenient, makes them feel good about themselves and they can avoid debate. This is especially true of the political class and I don´t see any sign of change there. I can´t see them fighting for or against anything. Mr. Peters writes about the rise of extremist parties and movements. This is extremely worrying, but even here things are more complicated. The thugs are first of all anti-western and anti-democratic. Some extremists on the right and left are finding common cause with radical muslims. It sounds counterintuitive, but remember: Hitler murdered jewish war veterans who were true patriots, but he got along fine with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Today, there are pro-Arab rightwingers (for example, Austria´s Joerg Haider went to visit Saddam in 2002). German socialist Oscar Lafontaine, a former candidate for chancellor, talks in glowing terms about the similarities between socialism and Islam. Neonazis rail against Israeli "aggression" and globalization as much as any old leftie. There are many examples. In the end, the common target is our western culture, identity and freedom. Who says the radicals will turn against Muslims first? Perhaps only the true citizens and moderates have to fear something. David Thomson :I wish to modify my earlier comment regarding Ralph Peters’ naive belief about the Europeans violently resolving the Islamic nihilist mess. He is half right. There will likely be numerous organize attempts to murder and intimidate Muslims. However, there will not be an effective Nazi style organized effort. If nothing else, today’s indigenous Europeans are confronted with a very large number of Islamic adherents. Jews barely comprised half of one percent of German’s overall population in 1939! They were grossly outnumbered. Armor :Ralph Peters in the New York Post: "The notion that continental Europeans, who are world-champion haters, will let the impoverished Muslim immigrants they confine to ghettos take over their societies and extend the caliphate from the Amalfi Coast to Amsterdam has it exactly wrong." What worries me is not the prospect of forceful conversion to islam, it is the current replacement of Europeans by immigrants. They won't have to take over society because they will BE society. Meanwhile, they are causing massive disruption to our lives. But Ralph Peters is such a great thinker... I realize he is not concerned with small details. El Gordo says : "The thugs are first of all anti-western and anti-democratic " You must be referring to our European ruling classes ! Becky :El Gordo said, "Perhaps only the true citizens and moderates have to fear something" And, as of recently, that has become my concern. The liberals and the Islamists are united in their desire to blame, hate and tear down. It is we, the ordinary citizens who should fear that our civilization is being sold out to forces that gain advantage or feelings or superiority by tearing it down. I hope I am wrong. But those of us who follow world events can see that the upcoming war can not be avoided. We are, in my opinion, past the point of no return. The question remains in my mind - exactly who will we be fighting? This war won't be one religion or nationality against another - but those who seek to retain the constraints of a peaceful civilization against those who wish to burn it down for pride or for power. This will be a global civil war. And at this point - I can see no way that it can be avoided. Sigh. I hope I'm wrong, but I know I am not. Veeshir :I don't usually read Peters, I agree that he could use a course in logic and reasoning, but I agree on this and did before he wrote it. I was in EUrope in February, I saw much casual anti-Muslim things wherever I went. In Italy, I saw stickers with "Muslim" with the "Don't" circle and slash around it. The papers, in both English and Italian, were full of studies about how most Muslims in EUrope (I use the EU part purposefully) don't want to assimiliate, they want sharia. When Europeans get too scared, they go on a killing spree. It's what they have always done. People talk about how they're poodles. Ummmm, no. Sure, their politicians are extra-wimpy. But I'll tell you what, walk up to a German soldier or police officer and call him a wimp. Don't worry, they have universal health-care over there. Dutch police are very tolerant, until you aren't. I saw a guy try to get a cop to do something, he kept kicking a can at the cop. The cop ignored him. But let the same guy try to hurt somebody else, well, he'll need the universal healthcare as well. People have mentioned that the Muslim pop is approaching 10%. So? Half are men, a smaller percentage are of an age to be considered militarily useful and all they would have are some AKs and molotov cocktails. They don't work so well against tanks, planes and APCs. I was in Holland as well. They are aggressively tolerant. Emphasis on "aggressively". I hadn't been to Amsterdam for something like 10 years, and it hasn't changed except they have edible food there now. All the pastry shops are now Pizzeria/falafel/shawarma/pastry shops now. And the falafel and shawarma are as good as I've had elsewhere. I saw groups of Muslim boys trolling the red-light district, but in a "schoolboys out on the town", giggling/pointing way, not in a "dirty harlot" way. Remember, the Germans thought the British were weak in 1940 because they saw Chamberlain and saw that people rejected Churchill. But when the fit hit the shan, Churchill was in until the crisis was over. If you don't think the French are capable of giving power to Le Pen, then I would suggest you think EUropean history started in 1950. If there's one thing Europeans are good at, it's genocide, mass murder and ethnic cleansing. For a recent example, as Peters said, see Kosovo. twa14 :Up until now reading Ralph Peters columns was like reading my own mind. His Eurabia outburst really shook me as he went from being completely right (kill those in Iraq who need to be killed)to completely wrong. The Germans have changed from probably the greatest military force on the face of the planet to the biggest collection of weaklings. I live in Holland and believe me, when the shit hits the fan here the Dutch will do exactly what they did in 1940, throw their hands in the air and wait for American rescue. There are many American dead in the WW2 graveyards here but not too many dutch. The notion of fat subsidized europeans taking up arms against the filth is completely crazy. Firstly we are not allowed weapons, they are strictly for muslims (all of whom seem to be armed) and criminals. There is no draft so no military knowledge in the population. The existing armed forces are not allowed to shoot anyone and if they do they get arrested by their own police (also a US problem!! If Bush had balls he would pardon the US soldiers who are locked up but presidential pardons are only for rich criminals). So Eurabia exists and proceeds apace with the full backing of all european lefty arseholes who seemingly cannot wait to be raped or mugged by the filth. Ralph Peters completes his bizarre act (is he left or right or just confused) by attacking Ann Coulter in his comments above. Leave Ann alone Ralphy, at least we know whose side she is on. Mike Nargizian :I like Peters and read his articles. But he said - "Our domestic Taliban"..... That's a comment you expect to hear from Noam Chomsky, Fisk or other related wack jobs on the left.... I hope it was just a statement out of instant anger and striking back, but either way it diminishes Peters as a commenter. Mike Jan van Dooren :Eurabia will be defeated. “Eurabia” is a monumental scholarly work by Bat Ye'Or, thoroughly researched and referenced. Unfortunately, this quality makes it very difficult and often tedious reading. The book would benefit from a thorough compendium enabling impatient readers as I to quickly grasp the contents and the message without having to wrestle through the full body. SailFree :The talk about French military defeating the Muslims neglects that MIL-MUTTs, Militant Muslims Using Terrorist Tactics, employ the same Far-East methods which chased the French from Dien Bien Phu. If the entire country of France can't stand up to combat Muslim terrorism in the world now, will they in the future when it's much more difficult? Doubtful. Interesting to see what happens to French vineyards under Sharia law! Valandir7 :Dear me, Ralph Peters is a historically uneducated dolt.. Europeans are the best folks at mass extermination? See Idi Amin? See Chairman Mao? Little country now called Myanmar...Cambodia? Or how about those nifty churches referred to in the Bible...like Ephesus? What ever happened to all of those Christians in Asia Minor...did they get deported? How about Constantinople err umm Istanbul? Islams biggest contribution to Western Civilization was the sack of Constantinople forcing all of those radical scholars back into the Roman Catholic church dominated Western Europe where they started a little thing call the Renaissance. I must try to double rethink self-remind... only WHITE people are brutal greedy bastards. Marijke de Jonge :Jan van Dooren, I wish you were right. Where do you get your optimism from? All I hear over here are cheers over the looming 'new left spring' (due to the last elections) so true Dutch hospitality and tolerance can get a fair chance one more time. Say you would like a see a new VOC-mentality (the willingness to explore and take risks) added to our national character, you get scorned left and right because nowadays people seem to learn at school the VOC has been the worst institution the Netherlands has ever had. And here you are telling us about European/western accomplishments and that we will at some point realise we owe our long-lasting peace to the US? Don't you know you're not allowed to be proud of your forebears? Or to believe that their accomplishments are examples of progression? Truly dangerous terrorism and religious fundamentalism comes from the US, don't you know? Taken this mentality of European dimwittism never before seen in history, islam will fit in perfectly, since Europeans and muslims have a lot in common. They share the hatred for Great Satan and the lack of interest in (re)producing Rembrandts or Van Leeuwenhoeks. Muslims think the amount of textile their women have to cover themselves with or the length of their beards are much more important, and the majority of Europeans seem to bow to those multicultural examples of supreme spiritual insight. Who in heaven's name will be the front man/woman of this new fascism? Who will instigate this new genocide? A hearty laugh is all Peters' fears merit, at least as long 'fascist' politicians don't get the light of day, while real-life fascist imams are respectfully listened to and taken seriously. Doesn’t he know that a lot if not most muslims in Europe don’t want to become Dutch, French or Belgian, that their true loyalty lies with Chechnya, Palestine or the rest of their ummah and that the worst anti-semitism comes from the people he thinks need protection? Comments have been archived for this page. |
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Gruesome. And accurate. To think Peters actually gets paid for his work!
Nov 28, 2006 10:43 AM